Posts by Open mind

2. Singing. I decided to try singing with my best Elvis impersonation regardless of the song. And, just like "gay men" above, I would adjust my volume depending on who was around.

Hey, it helped pass the time.

None of us attend anymore and I'll probably be the only one attending the Memorial this year.

om

52

GB's letter regarding UN membership - How Do You Prove Them Wrong?

by will-be-apostate in

i was reading brant jones' experience (published on jwfacts.com).

i read both letters: the one he wrote to the gb and the one he recieved from them.

link: http://jwfacts.com/watchtower/experiences/brantjonesunresponse.pdf.

Ex 20:11. Two big problems for WT creation tradition. What's their best shot?

by Open mind in

somehow the significance of exodus 20:11 has slipped right past my critical thinking skills for several decades.

"for in six days jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day.

that is why jehovah blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred.".

Open mind

Hmmm.

This big brown log has been sitting here for over 24 hours...

FLUSH!!!!

Not sure why this particular piece of JW illogic caught my attention anyway. Just add it to the list.

om

101

The Last BOE!

by Atlantis in

this is the last boe we will be able to provide.

our informant or source, was caught, disfellowshipped, and thrown out of bethel.

we knew that sooner or later the watchtower would find him out.

Open mind

Add one more voice to the chorus of sincere appreciation.

Doing what he did, where he did took a whole lot of intestinal fortitude.

I've got a late-teens nephew-in-law who just last year let my son (Torn In Two Son) know that he knows JWism is just so much equine fecal matter. His dad is an elder. I'll make some inquiries re: the possibility of getting BOE copies.

om

3

Ex 20:11. Two big problems for WT creation tradition. What's their best shot?

by Open mind in

somehow the significance of exodus 20:11 has slipped right past my critical thinking skills for several decades.

"for in six days jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day.

that is why jehovah blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred.".

Open mind

Somehow the significance of Exodus 20:11 has slipped right past my critical thinking skills for several decades.

"For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day. That is why Jehovah blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred."

This verse, along with verses 8-10 which are logically linked with it, presents two big problems for Watchtower theology.

1. It clearly states that the creation of the "heavens and the earth" happened within the "six days", not before.

2. The wording in Exodus 20:8-11 sure sounds like the "days" are all the same: literal, 24 hour days. Exodus 20:8-10 Is talking all about the sabbath, a literal 24 hour day. There's no segue or change in context. It just goes straight into verse 11:

"For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, ...".

The writer is clearly drawing a parallel between these "days". There is nothing in the wording to suggest that the reader, when moving from verse 10 to verse 11, should now mentally jump from 24 hour days to 7,000 year (or longer?) "creative days" and then back to 24 hour days at the end of verse 11. And yet, that is exactly what a true-believing JW is asked to do.

How in the world did I miss this all these years? (On second thought, please ignore that question. That topic has already been disected at length on plenty of other threads.)

What I'd really like to know is what is the best job that the Watchtower has done at explaining these verses away? I've done a search of earlier JWN threads and found this reference from "undercover" about 3 years ago. It's an Awake! article from September, 2006. (If you dont' feel like reading the whole lame thing, just skip down to my take on it below.)

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/192068/1/Age-of-Adam#.UyN8cc6KKmY

*****************************

http://www.watchtower.org/e/200609a/article_01.htm

MANY people claim that science disproves the Bible’s account of creation. But the real contradiction is between science and, not the Bible, but the opinions of so-called Christian Fundamentalists. Some of these groups falsely assert that according to the Bible, all physical creation was produced in six 24-hour days some 10,000 years ago.

The Bible, however, does not support such a conclusion. If it did, then many scientific discoveries over the past hundred years would indeed discredit the Bible. A careful study of the Bible text reveals no conflict with established scientific facts. For that reason, Jehovah’s Witnesses disagree with “Christian” Fundamentalists and many creationists. The following shows what the Bible really teaches.
When Was “the Beginning”?

The Genesis account opens with the simple, powerful statement: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1) Bible scholars agree that this verse describes an action separate from the creative days recounted from verse 3 onward. The implication is profound. According to the Bible’s opening statement, the universe, including our planet Earth, was in existence for an indefinite time before the creative days began.

Geologists estimate that the earth is approximately 4 billion years old, and astronomers calculate that the universe may be as much as 15 billion years old. Do these findings—or their potential future refinements—contradict Genesis 1:1? No. The Bible does not specify the actual age of “the heavens and the earth.” Science does not disprove the Biblical text.
How Long Were the Creative Days?

What about the length of the creative days? Were they literally 24 hours long? Some claim that because Moses—the writer of Genesis—later referred to the day that followed the six creative days as a model for the weekly Sabbath, each of the creative days must be literally 24 hours long. (Exodus 20:11) Does the wording of Genesis support this conclusion?

No, it does not. The fact is that the Hebrew word translated “day” can mean various lengths of time, not just a 24-hour period. For example, when summarizing God’s creative work, Moses refers to all six creative days as one day. (Genesis 2:4) In addition, on the first creative day, “God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.” (Genesis 1:5) Here, only a portion of a 24-hour period is defined by the term “day.” Certainly, there is no basis in Scripture for arbitrarily stating that each creative day was 24 hours long.

How long, then, were the creative days? The wording of Genesis chapters 1 and 2 indicates that considerable lengths of time were involved.

*************************

Basically, all I see WT doing here is throwing the Exodus 20:11 problem on the table and then saying "Hey! Look over here in Genesis".

No, WT. Let's stay right here in Exodus. According to WT, Moses wrote both Genesis and Exodus. And in Exodus he clearly states that the universe was created within the six creative days.

He also doesn't give any indication that the "days" involved in the sabbath law are any different than the "days" in which God created the Universe.

The more I read it, the more it seems to me that the Bible's references to creation call for literal 24 hour creative days.

Anyway, my bottom line question is this: Is the September 2006 Awake! article the best attempt WT has made at explaining Exodus 20:11?

Thanks,

om

p.s. For those who don't have a Bible or feel like looking it up, here's Ex 20: 7-12 so you can see the context. It's in the middle of the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 20:7 You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.

20:8 Remembering the sabbath day to hold it sacred, 20:9 you are to render service and you must do all your work six days. 20:10 But the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God. You must not do any work, you nor your son nor your daughter, your slave man nor your slave girl nor your domestic animal nor your alien resident who is inside your gates. 20:11 For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day. That is why Jehovah blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred.

20:12 Honor your father and your mother in order that your days may prove long upon the ground that Jehovah your God is giving you.

IMO, Verse 7 stands alone. Verses 8-11 all go together. Verse 12 stands alone.

29

WT wants members to auxiliary pioneer in place of vacations now!!!

by EndofMysteries in

the may 2014 km, posted in another thread is a link to download it.

page 2, for week starting may 19th under the service meeting:.

discussion.

Open mind

I grew up in a family where the mentality was:

"If you're not in some form of full-time service, you're a loser."

The only exceptions were: (1) Kids during the school year, (2) SOME people with disabilities that passed the scrutiny of judgemental JWs, (3) Moms with tons of kids, and (4) people with serious financial problems who hadn't yet figured out how to "balance" making money and pioneering.

As a kid, I didn't like the fact that I was EXPECTED to auxiliary pioneer during summer breaks. But, aside from the damaging cult aspects, I think it helped build a decent work ethic in me as well as time-management. Let's face it, how hard is it for a kid with no other obligations to get in 60 hrs? For me it was just a necessary chore to get through before I could either go have fun or make some bucks.

Having said that, everyone would have been better off if my parents had required us to get summer jobs instead of pioneering.

om

45

Hello

by GoUnion in

jw
friends

hello everyone it's nice to finally be able to post i had trouble getting emails last month and was never able to sign up.

this has been a very informative site which has really helped me grow and to think for myself.

please allow me to introduce myself.. i was born into a witness family and was baptized at a young age an was part of a small kingdom hall.

Open mind

Welcome GU!

What a carefully crafted first post. Designed to lure unsuspecting sheep away from God's True Organization (tm).

Just teasing. Your story has the refreshing aroma of honesty and truthfulness.

Take your time. Go VERY easy on your wife if she's not ahead of you in reevaluating the JWs.

I'm sending you a PM.

Best regards,

om and wife

64

I'm not trying to brag, but being an EXJW is awesome!!! Status Update-

by Coffee House Girl in

jw
friends

hello jwn!

i don't get to check in here or comment as often as i would like because i have been working so hard at school...but i just have to share my news in hopes that newbees can see that taking the leap to enroll in higher education is worth it-.

i am graduating this spring with a bachelor degree in art history, minor anthropology...many people (including nonjw's have given me flack for choosing a "dead end" career path) but since leaving the watchtower organization's group-think mentality and "leaning on my own understanding" instead... i decided to say fuck everyone else's opinion...i am going to pursue my passion to work in a museum as a curator or archivist-.

Open mind

Congratulations and kudos to you CHG!!!

Folks like you are the "keepers of the culture".

May your path be fulfilling.

om

97

I did it !!!!

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

7 years ago i started on a path i had long ago given up on as impossible.

i met with my elders and told them i could not justify carrying on as a jw.

i went and got my high school qualifications and my higher education diploma (a levels with distinction) in just 12 months.

Open mind

Congratulations!!!

(And ditto on Mag's comment.)

om